[00:00:00] Janet Taggart: As many of us know, management involves a lot of meetings, decision making, and supporting others, often at the expense of doing hands-on technical work. This, too, is a difficult area for many people who are shifting away from technical work and toward the people management. And I just want to say to the degree that they continue straddling between the two, doing the work themselves and empowering others is the degree to which they limit their ability to grow in their leadership capability and capacity. So being able to make that shift is extremely important.

[00:00:46] Stephanie Willmore: Welcome to the leadership transformations podcast. I’m your host, Stephanie Wilmore, accountability coach for Paradox Circle Consulting. In this podcast, we explore real life situations with the help of our two founders and principal consultants, Janet Taggart and Linda Linfield. Today, we are joined again by Janet Taggart.

[00:01:06] Janet specializes in empowering leadership transformation from the inside out. Coaching it, aspiring to executive leaders to become known for their highest value. Thank you for joining us, Janet.

[00:01:18] Janet Taggart: It’s great to be here, Stephanie. 

[00:01:20] Stephanie Willmore: Thank you. Today, we’re going to tackle a topic that many leaders face and it’s helping their talented employees pivot from the technical track into a management or leadership track.

[00:01:32] And that’s where they can start to learn to lead and influence people. And this is a critical conversation because in the tech world, career transitions are not always straightforward. Employees often face a crossroads. Should they stay in the technical role or move into people management? And it’s our responsibility to guide them through that process.

[00:01:54] So why do you think it’s important for leaders to have these conversations with their employees of whether or not they want to move into the people management field or stay in on the technical track?/ 

[00:02:06] Janet Taggart: Yeah, I think these conversations are pivotal because this doesn’t only impact an employee’s career, it also impacts teams and organizations that they’re part of and it’s crucial because these decisions aren’t just about the role that that employee may undergo or take on. They’re actually about identity, motivation, and long term satisfaction of that employee, which also reverberates throughout the team.

[00:02:37] When employees don’t fully understand what’s involved in moving into people management, it can lead to burnout, frustration, or even leaving the company. Leaders have the opportunity to guide their employees toward the right path. One that aligns with their strengths, their goals, and I would even say their motivation.

[00:02:59] Stephanie Willmore: Yeah, that’s a really good point. So let’s lay the groundwork. What do leaders and their employees need to understand about the differences between technical and management tracks? 

[00:03:11] Janet Taggart: It is, and that’s why employees need to understand what they’re signing up for. People management can seem like the next logical step, but it’s a completely different skill set.

[00:03:21] And when an employee pivots from a technical track into management, it is much like changing careers. When someone changes careers, they should understand that in doing so, they will be taking a step or two back. In pivoting into a new role, they are in a big learning curve for what it takes to succeed in this new role.

[00:03:42] They aren’t yet providing full value in that new role because they’re in the process of developing those skills. Whether it’s shifting from an I.T. role into an information security role, or from a technical to a leadership track. This stepping back is practically a universal reality for anybody shifting careers.

[00:04:03] So, just to like put a fine point on this for technical employees, they provide a certain level of value to the organization using their technical expertise. This is different from being a team lead. When they actually transition into their first people management role, whether it 

be as a manager or director, they’re being promoted, even though they still lack the level of people leadership skills that would enable them to provide the same value to their organization.

[00:04:36] As a result of this reduced value that they can provide, the new manager or director may not see this significant bump in compensation, let’s say, that they might otherwise expect. Instead, they need to mature in their role and demonstrate their ability to navigate conflict, enable others, and increase their influence and create relationships of trust beyond the team that they manage.

[00:05:04] This is important for the new people leader to understand so they don’t misunderstand the nature of their career trajectory now that they’re on the people side. Sometimes we see very capable leaders who are making this transition and yet they start thinking that they aren’t as valued or their role isn’t important because they don’t have, they don’t receive that recognition through that bump in compensation that they might otherwise expect.

[00:05:35] It’s a tricky transition. It’s a step back. But it’s also a very, when it’s right for you, a very engaging and important step, and it’s just part of making that shift, and to not read too much into it. 

[00:05:49] Stephanie Willmore: So given everything you just said about, maybe it’s like taking a step back and then people may not fully realize what that really means. Why do you think they’re still drawn to management roles? 

[00:06:00] Janet Taggart: Well, there’s a few of the top reasons that come to mind and based on the people that I’ve helped over the years, some genuinely want to lead and they want to influence at a broader level. Like that is in their heart and they’re drawn to this type of work.

[00:06:18] Others with substantial technical expertise or experience gradually assume more responsibilities and often find themselves compelled or encouraged to take on management roles. One is drawn to it and others, they kind of evolve into it because they’re doing so well in their technical role, their leader starts to see them being capable of a people leadership role, even though they’re quite different.

[00:06:47] Stephanie Willmore: That makes total sense. And so what do leaders need to do to communicate effectively with these people who are transitioning into people management? 

[00:06:55] Janet Taggart: Well, first, it’s important to provide consistency when communicating an employee’s potential for growth. What I mean by this is that it’s not enough for the skip level or the executive leader to communicate with that employee about new role expectations, compensation issues, those type of things.

[00:07:15] Each leader between the employee and the leader who advocated for the promotion should share the common understanding about the growth and development of their employees and be able to communicate it in a consistent way. This alignment will help the employee when they have questions or concerns about their new role, especially when their expectations haven’t been met.

[00:07:39] I’ve worked with a number of situations where the employee was hearing one thing from their direct manager and almost a completely other thing from their executive leader. One was saying there was no growth path while the other was actively advocating for their promotion. So that was really confusing and disheartening for this employee and it puts the organization at risk for losing their high-potential talent.

[00:08:08] Stephanie Willmore: That’s complicated. And I imagine rather frustrating. So what can leaders do to effectively talk about this transition? Like what, how can they approach it? What would you recommend? 

[00:08:19] Janet Taggart: Well, I think as with any conversation of this type, you want to pay attention to the tone. The conversation should feel safe and collaborative.

[00:08:29] Not like an interrogation or a sales pitch for one path over the other. It’s really about helping the employee explore what’s best for them and how that can increase their value with the organization and also improve their engagement and their feeling of self efficacy within their role. People like to feel like they’re advancing.

[00:08:50] It’s often difficult for many technical organizations to find people with technical expertise who are also interested in stepping into people leadership roles. This creates a lack of a leadership bench strength and limits the organization’s abilities to achieve their goals and objectives. These conversations, while they need to be safe and collaborative, they need to take place because they’re vital for the long term health of that technical organization.

[00:09:18] In addition to providing a safe and collaborative conversation, the leader can also take note of how the employee is speaking about their desire for moving into people management. Do they talk about the impact they want to have on people they lead and the difference they want to make in the organization?

[00:09:36] Or are they talking more about the technical aspects of their job and how that will make an impact? The leader can often pick up where the employee is thinking from and what they are thinking toward by what they talk about. Leaders can use their observations to then help the employee understand where their thinking is in line with the shift into people leadership and what they may be missing.

[00:10:02] Stephanie Willmore: That makes a lot of sense. Could you give some examples of what leaders should focus on communicating during this transition? 

[00:10:09] Janet Taggart: Yeah, I think, as you’re communicating with your employees about the possibility or actually making the shift from technical into people, leadership, or management, that transparency is really important.

[00:10:24] It’s really key and transparency is about, let’s give it three buckets, skills, work style, and metrics for success. So, skills. A manager or a people leader needs strong interpersonal skills. They also need strategic thinking and the ability to navigate conflict. This becomes more front and center in terms of providing value to the organization.

[00:10:53] It’s what orients the manager towards having the right conversations about the right things while maintaining and building collegial relationships of trust. Another skill related to interpersonal skills is the ability to influence those around you, those who don’t report to you. 

This is especially true for tech leaders whose work likely impacts various business units across the organization.

[00:11:20] Being able to influence those who are more senior than they are is essential in a people leadership role. The next is work style. As many of us know, management involves a lot of meetings, decision making, and supporting others, often at the expense of doing hands-on technical work. This too is a difficult area for many people who are shifting away from technical work and toward the people management.

[00:11:47] And I just want to say, to the degree that they continue straddling between the two doing the work themselves and empowering others is the degree to which they limit their ability to grow in their leadership capability and capacity. Being able to make that shift is extremely important. The final bucket, career path. What are the growth timelines and opportunities? How do those look different in management versus technical tracks? I want to stress this point because this is where people really get hung up. When someone has been providing primarily technical expertise in their organization, they still use some of that expertise when working in the management track.

[00:12:32] They’re kind of a novice in significant ways in their leadership and influencing skill. They can expect a dip in their feelings of self efficacy, their ability to quote, get things done, and even to wonder at times if this was the right move. Support during these times is absolutely critical. And while these skills to successfully navigate into management are learnable, ensuring the employees understand the significance of the change and what the possible upside is down the road will help them realize their greatest potential and allow the organization to retain and develop key talent.

[00:13:10] Stephanie Willmore: Okay, you touched on a lot of really great points there and, you know, it probably might be a lot for somebody who’s transitioning to like take in. And so how can they talk about all these things, especially like you said that they may be feeling like a novice now in this position? How can leaders guide somebody in this position and who, who might be feeling a little bit of imposter syndrome or who may be feeling like they’re not as experienced, how can they do that without discouraging the employee?

[00:13:39] Janet Taggart: Oh, you’re so right. Like being aware of that is so important because employees don’t always leak. Sometimes they do too much, right? But sometimes they don’t always leak what they’re feeling. Imposter syndrome, for example. They want to make sure that the leader who promoted them feels like that was a good choice.

[00:14:00] And they may, you know, they’re maybe going through a lot of things that aren’t apparent. How does a leader communicate? Well during these times, and it really is about balance. The leader doesn’t wanna get in the way of trying to advocate too strongly for someone who’s not ready or who is not suited for a leadership track.

[00:14:26] The leader should create some transparency and balance between how to highlight the opportunities and also recognize the challenges equally. And I think where there is some imposter syndrome that pops up and there are some feelings of, you know, “Before I could just do it myself and I knew it got done. Well, now I have to try to get others to do it past the glow to them.”

[00:14:53] The leader can share with their employee stories about other employees who have thrived in either track or how they’ve shifted to the leadership track. And they’ve shown to be a great leader or that’s completely doable and learnable. I’ve worked with a number of leaders in technology who, you know, they don’t feel like they’re the leadership type and actually they’re the perfect leaders for their technical organization. I believe it really is about the motivation and whether people are teachable and willing to move into those roles, but as a leader in communicating with them, balancing what the challenges are, what the opportunities are and painting a picture for how they can actually do it and learn it, and they’re completely capable if they are teachable and coachable in the process. 

[00:15:55] Stephanie Willmore: You give some really great advice about where they can take that conversation. And what I think would be helpful is if you could give some leaders some example questions of things they could ask in a 1on1, you know, say that they are identifying a high potential, you know, and they kind of want to probe and see if that person is even thinking about people leadership. What are some of those questions you think that they could use or borrow from you in a one on one or in a conversation when they’re trying to see if that person is thinking about people leadership?

[00:16:29] Janet Taggart: That is a great question about what questions to ask, Stephanie. So we’re trying to unearth what the employee is excited about, where their thinking is, and we may not want to say, “Do you want to do this or this?” We want to help them in that exploration. Let me give you an example of, a handful of questions that may be helpful.

[00:16:54] And leaders out there who have employees in this situation can devise their own, but you’ll get a sense for. what kind of questions we’re talking about. They’re open ended, they’re not yes or no, and they’re really eliciting a thoughtful response. So question like, “What excites you about the potential shift into people management?”

[00:17:15] And you can listen to what they’re thinking about, what they’re hoping to accomplish, because that’s where you can go in and you can help them navigate through what, where they’re thinking toward and where they’re thinking from. The next question. “What parts of your current role do you love and want to keep?”

[00:17:34] So what do they love and they want to keep, they may be anxious to make a shift. And you’re really asking them what are those things that they’re most engaged with in their current role. I think that is beautiful because if it’s a hard shift, if moving into the other track is going to rip all of that away, then that allows the leader to be very transparent about that and say, “Let’s talk about what this new role might look like eventually.”

[00:18:06] Not right after they answer the question, but this could be part of your conversation. The next question could be something like, “What skills are you most eager to develop?” This does a couple of things. First of all, it helps the leader to understand where the employee thinks they need to grow, and it also plants the seed that the employee does have room for development.

[00:18:29] This is not like a degree at the end of a university training, right? It is something that, it puts you on a path to developing in a different way. And so this question is a really great one to ask. What skills are you most eager to develop presupposing that they need to develop some, and it helps the leader to know where they’re thinking.

[00:18:53] And it also opens up the conversation for the leader to say, “Would you be interested in what I see?” And being able to share that with that employee and then the last one I’ll share is, “What impact do you want to have in your career?” This is a pretty deep question, and it can go about anywhere and it really helps the leader to understand where that employee wants to go and that the leader can then, right, it opens up that conversation. The leader can then come up underneath that and support or give them some information they may want to think about further. All of these questions help the employee to reflect and align their aspirations with their strengths.

[00:19:37] Stephanie Willmore: Thank you for sharing that. I think that was really helpful that you offered leaders some examples that they could use, but also the purpose behind them. They’re purposeful questions. I think those were some great examples. So say this conversation has happened and a leader has decided to lean into one track more than the other. What can a leader do to then support them? How do they take it from there? 

[00:20:00] Janet Taggart: Well, I think one of the most important things is to make sure that the leader provides the resources, regardless of which track they go on. For management, that means, of course, providing leadership development opportunities. So often leaders promote their key talent into people management roles without the support those employees need to make the shift effectively. This support could take the form of leadership training. It could take the form of coaching or mentoring opportunities. Usually, it’s a combination of these and other tools depending on the needs of the employee in the organization. It’s important to keep in mind that with each promotion and people leadership, there are significant challenges in what is expected in terms of building relationships, effectively communicating, influencing others and maintaining a calm demeanor in the face of challenges. And if they’re unaddressed at an earlier stage, they become more problematic in the next stage and they grow exponentially. So it’s important, even if you have high potential that you’re trying to get ready for leadership.

[00:21:11] It’s important to start there so they can start do the mental mapping and doing the changes in the development within so that they’re ready when those opportunities come and they’re ready for each additional level that they progress through. Well, for technical growth, it’s not surprising that advanced certifications and more challenging technical projects will be necessary in order for them to progress technically speaking.

[00:21:38] Those technical learning opportunities, development opportunities. What may be surprising is that leadership development is also needed for those growing their technical career. Even technical experts need to be able to communicate effectively, for example. They need to be able to influence those over whom they have no positional authority, and they need to be able to navigate conflict well, regardless of their role.

[00:22:05] By helping them to navigate those types of things, this sets them up to advocate for the work that they produce and provide even greater value to the organization. Development, leadership development for both tracks are important. It just is a matter of degree and the intensity. 

[00:22:24] Stephanie Willmore: As you were saying that, it kind of made me ponder the question. How do you leaders go about creating a clear growth path for both of those tracks? 

[00:22:33] Janet Taggart: It’s really critical to do so. Many times as a organization is growing and developing, the leader over that organization may be thinking about in terms of what those other levels are. However, I’ve found as I’ve worked with leaders, it’s really important for them to work with their organizations to define those dual career frameworks where both tracks are equally valued. And there’s a clear delineation between each level that an employee can progress through. This helps the employee’s leader communicate those opportunities consistently, like we talked about earlier, that was so important.

[00:23:18] And then it also helps when employees see that either track can lead them to senior roles and recognition. They really feel empowered to choose the path that’s right for them. Planning for various levels in both tracks, even when the organization isn’t quite ready, hasn’t matured enough to actually put those levels in place.

[00:23:40] It’s helpful for your high potential, your key talent to be able to see that those will eventually become realities because you’re talking about them and it’s part of the maturing process of the organization and it will help them understand that yes, there is growth within the organization, even when those job levels aren’t visible yet.

[00:24:04] Stephanie Willmore: And it’s really important for these leaders to do regular check-ins with these people as well, right? 

[00:24:10] Janet Taggart: Absolutely. Career aspirations can evolve. You may have an employee that says, “Absolutely, I want to go into a people leadership track.” And then as they start to lean into that, realize they’re not quite ready, or their heart really is in more of the technical space.

[00:24:28] These regular conversations can help ensure employees feel supported and in line with their goals, always with the organization in mind, of course, 

[00:24:38] Stephanie Willmore: Right. Well, thank you so much for just giving leaders who are in this position of helping their aspiring leaders or their managers moving into director position, whatever it may be, just some ideas of how they can navigate these conversations.

[00:24:54] I feel like that’s just so valuable. And are there any other key takeaways you want to share with us on this topic? 

[00:25:01] Janet Taggart: Well, I think one of the most important things is to communicate with empathy and transparency. You want to help your employees make informed decisions that align with their passions and their strengths.

[00:25:13] And when you support their growth, you’re also strengthening your team and organization. And you’re retaining that key talent that’s so important for you to have a strong leadership bench. I think that’s really important, just keeping that communication, being able to communicate that transparency and also with the employee in mind.

[00:25:36] Stephanie Willmore: Right. And I think that you’ve just created a conversation about how to navigate those conversations so well and don’t like discussing the why’s behind that. And I think this is just such a valuable conversation that we’ve had today. So thank you. 

[00:25:53] Janet Taggart: Thank you. It’s been a real pleasure. 

[00:25:54] Stephanie Willmore: And to our listeners, we invite you to appreciate the experiences that have brought you to this moment in your life’s journey and in your leadership journey. And we invite you to stay open to the possibilities within you. You were meant for greater things. Until next time.

At Peridot Circle, we facilitate the growth and transformation of individuals, leaders, and emerging leaders of fast-growing tech-savvy organizations. If any of our listeners are interested in learning more about our approach to leadership coaching at Peridot Circle Consulting and how to help transform how you show up at work, book a consult with us online at peridotcircleconsulting.com. We would love to help you and your organization achieve more than ever before.