[00:00:00] Janet Taggart: In fact, in these situations, opportunities often unlock in very interesting and unplanned ways. And so, really, this is the intersection of where possibility and opportunity actually exist. Otherwise, it’s just incremental and somebody has to quit before something open—you know what I mean? So this actually can pave the way, and if you can keep your head while everybody else is losing theirs, you stand heads and shoulders—you stand out as someone who has leadership chops to be able to get through such difficulties. It really does a lot for your personal leadership brand.

[00:00:50] Stephanie Willmore: Welcome to the Leadership Transformations Podcast. I’m your host, Stephanie Willmore, Accountability Coach for Peridot Circle Consulting. In this podcast, we explore real-life situations with the help of our two founders and principal consultants, Janet Taggart and Linda Linfield. Today, we are joined by Janet Taggart.

[00:01:10] Janet specializes in empowering leadership transformation from the inside out, coaching aspiring and executive leaders to become known for their highest value. Thank you for joining the podcast today, Janet. 

[00:01:22] Janet Taggart: Thrilled to be here. 

[00:01:23] Stephanie Willmore: Thank you. Janet, you have coached a diverse group of leaders as your time as an executive coach and from diverse industries.

[00:01:33] And one common thread or issue that comes up with everyone is navigating unanticipated challenges or challenges that have a drastic impact. And what is something that you want business leaders to know when these unanticipated and sometimes undesired changes come? 

[00:01:54] Janet Taggart: It’s a really good question. And when you think about it, what is leadership if not to navigate such uncomfortable, difficult situations. So really we’re talking about the heart of leadership here. And as I look at what’s happening, I just got notified that more layoffs are happening this time with KPMG. We’ve got COVID in the rearview mirror. There’s economic concerns.

[00:02:24] And businesses are really being challenged. I won’t say like never before, but certainly, this is a very challenging time for business. There are return-to-office policies. There’s inflation. There’s pressure for organizations to preserve their cash reserves. There’s so many issues that are confronting business today.

[00:02:46] And leaders are carrying that, the brunt of that impact. So these are macro issues, but there’s also issues within a particular industry or organization. So there could be changes in leadership or shifting priorities. And leaders really, as I said, it’s the heart of leadership.

[00:03:08] Leaders need to develop a core competency for navigating change. In the past, so often we were coaching our leaders how to navigate incremental changes. But now we’re seeing businesses, even in light of such headwinds, they are still wanting to grow exponentially. And so leaders need to recognize that what they’re being called to do is not only navigating change, but really being able to make a big difference and create outcomes like never before, even with such headwinds that the changes is giving them. So how do we help leaders, you know, the real question is how do we help leaders try to maintain their equilibrium? So that’s really at the heart of what we’re trying to talk about today, I think, is to how do we help leaders stay grounded, stay proactive, and optimistic even while facing things that are affecting them as well as their teams and their organizations. So many, many levels. 

[00:04:20] Stephanie Willmore: Right. Well, I think that’s such a good point that this is a part of your job description. If you have a leadership position, it is inherent in what you do to pave the way for others and to help them show up to these changes with resilience and to say, “We’re gonna tackle this optimistically.”

[00:04:38] Even if internally, they’re not feeling that way, even if they don’t know what to do with it, it’s their job to say, “Okay, we’re going to find a solution. We’re going to make proposals. We’re going to go through this together.” And so what is your approach to helping leaders navigate these? Can you give us an example with a current client or what’s kind of like your process of working with a leader who comes to you and says, “Janet, we’ve, we’re dealing with this huge policy change, and I’m concerned about how people are going to react to it? I’m not really sure how I’m supposed to respond to it.” Can you give us an example of how you would walk a leader through that if they approached you? 

[00:05:17] Janet Taggart: First of all, it’s just, it’s really important to understand that when a leader is going through this type of thing, they’re experiencing, especially unexpected change.

[00:05:29] A lot of times in organizations, leaders would get a heads up, they can kind of get their thinking around the change that’s going to happen. But more and more, I see things that are happening where leaders down the line are not being pre-warned. They’re not giving advanced notice. So these changes are unexpected or unanticipated and we want them to know–this is difficult.

[00:05:55] It is unsettling and it does invite feelings of self-doubt, frustration, overwhelm, those types of, so those are real. Those are actually what’s happening with the leader and that it’s normal to feel the way they do, right? Like this, just a way to say, “You’re not overreacting, most likely. You really are caught off guard and all of those emotions and all of those feelings are very normal and natural. You wouldn’t be human if you didn’t experience them.” So next we want them to recognize that they do have, they have a lot that they can do, while at the same time, there’s a lot that’s out of their control. So knowing the difference and deciding to focus their attention, their energy, their thoughts on what they can change your influence is massively important. 

[00:06:51] We can get all hung up on the fairness or whether the organization, the leadership made the right decisions. All of those things, or we can say, “This is what’s happening. This does have a big impact. There are things that I know that I’m just going to have to deal with.” And what are those things and what are things that I can actually influence so that I can be seen as someone who is supportive, yet also doing my job in alerting leadership as to some of the consequences and the possible ways through those consequences? 

[00:07:32] So we’re really trying to stay in partnership with those with whom we report so that we can make sure that the best things happen. When you say optimistic, I want to be clear. It doesn’t mean you’re Pollyanna. You’re someone who only sees the good and there’s always a silver lining because sometimes these decisions have real consequences that impact real lives and families, and they’re real.

[00:07:57] They’re not just, “Oh, I don’t prefer it.” They’re actually real. And so when we say optimism, we’re saying trying to find ways forward. Not that you’re thinking everything is rosy, but you have, it’s more realistic and less pessimistic than sometimes we call realistic as, does that make sense?

[00:08:19] So we’re working with leaders right now who work for their organization that recently have announced some return to work policies that were unexpected and unsettling, to say the least. It is, as I indicated earlier, it is impacting real lives. People who have difficulty coming back to work because of health concerns of their own, or they have aging parents and real, real situations.

[00:08:49] And it’s causing significant stress and uncertainty for the leader who’s affected personally and also affecting their leadership team. Concerns about business continuity for their group is actually a real risk for them. So helping that leader identify three things about their scenario really helps them start to get on their front foot.

[00:09:13] So one of the things we often do, and it’s great to do with someone because you have to really pull this out of yourself. And so identifying what’s the worst that could happen. So we have a leader, they just were surprised by a back-to-work policy, back to the office that is unsettling.

[00:09:40] They don’t agree with it, but it is what it is. So there are things in that leader’s heart that really, really need to be expressed that they see as real danger. And so what is the worst that could happen in this situation? I could lose everyone on my team. I could myself, be find myself out of a job because I can’t relocate or whatever it is.

[00:10:05] So outlining what is the very worst that could happen. And if that were to happen, what would they do, right? So in the back of our mind, we have these boogeymans, we have these things that we’re worried about and we want to pull them out of the darkness, out of the shadows and say, “What is it? And what would I do if that actually happened?” In our brains, we almost think it’s a life or death situation when in actuality it is like, “Okay, what would I do if I lost a significant part or all of my team? What would that allow for? What could I create as a result of that?”

[00:10:47] You could almost say there’s some, there might be some benefits to this, right? I mean, it’s hard to say because it’s impacting everyone. And yet you could also say it might even be better for the people who are impacted if they find something closer, right?

[00:11:05] So it’s up to the leader to decide what is the worst that could happen and what they could do about it and come up with as many solutions as they can. Then the next thing to do is to say, “What’s the best that could happen?” Like, let’s say, right, we have the situation and what is the best that could happen?

[00:11:25] And this may align with some of the reasoning that leadership wanted to do this return-to-work policy. It could align there. It could align to other things that the leader has always wanted to start to inculcate into their team, but they haven’t had an opportunity to. So what’s the best that could happen and what would they do if that were to occur?

[00:11:47] So this is actually trying to take the leader by the cheeks and saying, “Look at me and say, what is actually the best that could happen?” So, right. So we’re trying to look at both scenarios. Then we want to meet in the middle. Because now, because we’ve looked at both extremes, the leader is now more calm. They’re more proactive and they can plan for the worst case. They can notice what good can come out of it. 

[00:12:12] Now we want to say, “What is the most likely to happen?” Right? Now, our mind has addressed the two extremes. Now this prepares for the most likely to happen and it’s usually something in between, maybe more towards the worst that could happen, maybe, but it gives the leader a range from which to work on, they’re more prepared for whatever comes their way as a result of this undesired change. That makes sense? 

[00:12:44] Stephanie Willmore: Absolutely. And I really love how you’re kind of talking about this shift in perspective where you open up yourself to lots of different possibilities so you can be prepared for lots of different possibilities. But even just that idea of maybe this isn’t bad, maybe this is hard. So we want to be authentic, right?

[00:13:04] We want to be authentic to how we’re feeling. Like you said, it impacts real lives. And also what are the possibilities that will help us navigate through this potential hard that can help us show up and anticipate also maybe unanticipated benefits. “Am I opening my mind to that?” And I think that it’s interesting because we had talked so much about how we don’t want to be biased towards the Pollyanna point of view.

[00:13:32] However, we don’t want to also be biased towards the negative point of view or the doom and gloom point of view as well, right? We have to kind of get a full view and kind of run the gamut of all those feelings and scenarios and possibilities. So I think that’s so, so insightful that you kind of lay the foundation for your coaches to think about it in that way.

[00:13:55] Janet Taggart: Stephanie, it’s really about divergent thinking, helping the leader ‘cause right now they’ve converged on looking at the train wreck that they perceive. And really, we’re asking them to say, “Let’s diverge your thinking and see a whole range of possibilities and be able to plan for those.” So yeah, for sure. 

[00:14:16] Stephanie Willmore: Well, that’s great. And I really appreciate you sharing that approach with us.

[00:14:20] And I think, can we kind of elaborate on that perspective aspect of what you’re doing with the leader? Because really you are helping them open up their mind, right? This is kind of a perspective, an elevated perspective ideology, rather than sitting in that fight or flight, right? It’s how can we open ourselves more to that.

[00:14:38] So can you share with us kind of the steps you take a leader through in order to elevate that mindset or open that perspective? Because what’s real in perception is really real in its consequences. It’s interesting how we have like these policies that have really hard outcomes like some real outcomes.

[00:14:59] And we think, “Oh, how was mindset going to make that big of a difference?” But really mindset is kind of the root of our behavior and our reaction and our attitude to these things and our ability to have the energy to approach that situation with more resilience. So what are the steps that you take to help a leader go through that with a more resilient mindset or with a broadened perspective?

[00:15:22] Janet Taggart: Yeah, so what we want to do is we want to help the leader really choose where they think from and what they think toward. And when you’re in fight or flight, you’re thinking from a place of scarcity, of fear, of calamity toward more calamity increased, you know, those types of scenarios.

[00:15:48] And so we want to say, “Okay, so what is more useful for the leader? Where can they choose to think from?” And it really is a choice because your limbic, the part of your brain that responds with emotion, it’s fully locked and engaged. And so you have to engage that prefrontal cortex to say, “Okay, where do I want to choose to think from and think toward?”

[00:16:11] So there’s a couple of things that we can do depending on the situation. So, and I think this is useful for anyone. So I’d like to, there’s three things that I think would really be useful. The first one is recognize the story you’re in and your role as a co-author in that story. You’re not the author because there’s things happening to you and other people who are authoring their story that’s impacting you.

[00:16:37] So you’re co-authoring your story and you want to make sure you pick up that pen or get your fingers on the keyboard so that you can be an active part of that story. So first thing is to decide what type of story are you in. And when we first get hit by something that’s unexpected and causes us great concern, we can feel like we’re in a bit of a tragedy.

[00:17:08] We are in a really sad, tragic story. It could end up being a comedy of sorts, but what we want to really encourage the leader to do is let’s, what if we decide you’re in a hero’s journey? You’re in a hero’s journey and you have gone on a quest. We can explore what that quest is. And right now, as in any hero’s journey, if you think about any story where there’s a protagonist who’s going on a quest or trying to achieve something, that’s the hero’s journey.

[00:17:44] And we say, “Okay, so what is the most productive story that you can author in your hero’s journey?” So notice where you are on this journey. You are not in the place where it’s a happily ever after or everything has been resolved. You are actually in the point, maybe even the point of climax of the story, where a big issue needs to be resolved before things come to resolution.

[00:18:11] It could also be a point along the way to an ultimate climax, right? But you’re, but that’s where you are. You’re not in a place where you’re just beginning the journey or you are working as a leader and now something has come up that the hero, you, of your own story need to tackle.

[00:18:36] And if we look at it that way, then we kind of put on our hero’s cap and say, “What would a hero do? What’s facing me right now? And what can I do about it to get to the other side?” So often when we have something confronting us, it is in full color, right up close to us. And we can’t see–we see it in perpetuity going forward. And what we’re saying is that in your hero’s journey, this is one conflict along the way of your ultimate destination. So you may be, this is a time to gather resources, to gather skills, to become more effective in your role. This is something that you can help others as they’re in their journeys to allow, to give them the tools.

[00:19:30] You’re developing the tools right now. You can then pay that forward in the future. So you can take that view as you’re confronting something that is difficult. So, it could feel right now that you’re cliffhanging, that you’re at the edge of a precipice, and you need to decide whether or not you’re going to survive or thrive.

[00:19:51] You can decide that the hero is going to turn back around and go home. And that is certainly a decision. Or it could be an inflection point in your story where you want to continue to learn the skills and abilities to get through this challenge or to take your skills elsewhere. I mean, it really is up to you.

[00:20:12] You’re co-authoring it. But your ability to observe yourself as a leader and the situation as if you were in the middle of your book, not at the end, will help you to start to navigate that emotional reaction responses that we’ve talked about earlier, those elements in your story. 

[00:20:31] Stephanie Willmore: Well, that’s great. Number one. So the number one is to make a decision that you have an unfinished story and who are you? Like, what role are you? And it’s better to have the courage to be the hero, right? This really is about being courageous and saying, “You know what? I may be on a cliff tingling, or I can anticipate or see myself hanging on a cliff, but that’s not the end.”

[00:20:46] Right? And I think it’s interesting that sometimes in that fight or fight reaction that you kind of talked about is that in order to protect ourselves, sometimes we almost see ourselves as a tragedy because we’re like, “Well, we know how it’s going to go,” right? Like, “Well, of course it’s going to go that way.” But you actually don’t know that. It’s still unknown.

[00:21:18] You’re anticipating things and it’s better to show up and make the decision and put on the hero’s cap. I love that. So what’s the second step? 

[00:21:36] Janet Taggart: So the second thing is to notice the discomfort the challenges are causing you, right? And that’s not hard to do, right? ‘Cause you may be in a whole world of discomfort while at the same time challenging yourself to activate your curiosity. So here you are, you’re feeling like you’re hanging on the edge of a precipice. There’s all these things that could go wrong. You’re noticing that discomfort, use that as your key, your trigger to say, “I’m curious about what’s going to happen as a result of this.” Right?

[00:22:05] “Here I am. I’m hanging on the edge of a precipice. Is a large bird going to come and save me? Am I going to learn how to defy gravity? Am I going to find a foothold to climb down the mountain?” Like, we don’t know what that is, but if you are frozen in the discomfort, you’re not able to, your brain is not able to articulate or to recognize other options. So by activating your curiosity, you’re starting to calm that reaction and be curious and open to what other options might be available to you. Curiosity helps pull us out of anger. It helps pull us out of frustration and other types of reactionary responses.

[00:22:55] And communicating in overwhelming frustration rarely bodes well for a productive outcome, right? If we’re just overwhelmed. So instead being curious about what you are about to learn from the situation will help you to actually begin to work through that challenge. It can also help others who are experiencing the same challenges with you as you encourage them also to adopt that curiosity, as an opening for growth and greater resilience. So it’s something that you can invite for yourself and also invite for your team, for example, to be curious about what could be the result of this, right? We don’t know that it will be, but what could it be?

[00:23:43] Now this is actually, you know, keep in mind, this is after we’ve already given the space for us to be human and to be, and to recognize that this is a difficult situation, but now we’re on the other side and we’re trying to now to help ourselves and our team to move forward. So using that curiosity to remain open to possibilities you haven’t yet discovered will help you navigate your current situation. It will also help you build a track record and skills for resilience in future difficulties. And this is so important. A lot of times, Stephanie, people ask us like, “Is this the time to throw in the towel and leave the organization?”

[00:24:26] And so we talk through those types of things. And I would encourage people that if they’re still learning, if they’re still growing, as even in the face of something this difficult, stick with it. This is going to redound to your betterment, no matter what, where you decide to go. And in fact, in these situations, opportunities exist often unlock in very interesting and unplanned ways. And so really this is the intersection of where possibility and opportunity actually exist. Otherwise, it’s just incremental and somebody has to quit before it’s something open–you know what I mean? So this actually can pave the way. And if you can keep your head while everybody else is losing theirs, you stand heads and shoulders above.

[00:25:21] Not that you’re being in competition, but right? You stand out as someone who has the leadership chops to be able to get through such difficulties. It really does a lot for your personal leadership brand.

[00:25:33] Stephanie Willmore: I agree. I agree. Yeah, no, that’s so insightful. Thank you. And so, you put on this hero’s cap and then you open up yourself to curiosity, and curiosity is extremely underestimated as a mindset tool because the opposite of being curious is rushing to judgment, right? Curiosity allows us to not only judge ourselves less, whether or not we’re going to measure up or whether or not we’re going to know what to do, or if we’re going to handle our team’s responses to these policies or difficulties in the appropriate way, but also makes us reserve less judgment about the outcome, right?

[00:26:09] Like what are we preparing ourselves for really? Well, when we’re curious. We have less judgment about that potential outcome. And like you said, it helps you keep your head above water and say, “I guess we’ll find out.” And, or, “How am I going to assert my influence within the realm that I can control?” Like you said earlier, to make this situation better, as within my sphere of influence.

[00:26:32] So I think that’s just a really great point. And you said that there was a third step. So what’s the last thing that somebody should do after they put on their hero’s cap, open up their mind to curiosity. What’s the last part of having a resilient mindset? 

[00:26:44] Janet Taggart: So, yeah, thank you. So the third is to see the big picture.

[00:26:49] And this can be kind of akin to choosing the story you’re in and choosing to be in a hero’s journey, but it is different enough to call out on its own and it’s the ability to see beyond where you are right now in your leadership story and recognize the miles you’re running. and the experiences you are navigating and the wisdom you are gaining can be forged into tools for use in future opportunities and challenges.

[00:27:19] So, just not projecting in the future that this is how it’s always going to be or, “I’ve totally lost respect for my organization,” but recognize this situation is calling for you. It’s an invitation for you to be able to develop those tools, those strategies, those ways of thinking through very difficult situations and to help others do the same.

[00:27:48] And it goes to a core belief that I have, is that every one of us, each of us is meant for more. More capacity, more capability, and even more compassion, more of who we really are. And in order to become what you hope to become, are destined to become really, it requires that you surmount the exact challenges you are currently facing.

[00:28:17] I believe that. I believe life rolls along in ways that tries to pull out our greatest self if we choose to do so, right, we can choose the other way too. So we encourage leaders to pay attention to how their current set of challenges are actually working with them to enable them to become the leaders and the influencers that they have it in them to become.

[00:28:43] And on the way, you can inspire and lift others by what you learn, as we indicated earlier. My business partner worked in a corporate environment for years. And while her company went through many mergers and acquisitions, she paid attention to how others were responding to the stress and uncertainty.

[00:29:03] She decided that she would learn from the experience how to be an optimistic leader, despite the unsettling circumstances. And even though she had six managers within a short period of time, she learned how to quickly communicate her readiness to help them succeed in their new role.

[00:29:24] And so that ability to be on her front foot very quickly with a new leader has helped her for the rest of her career and even now as she coaches other leaders. So we’ve used these tools. These tools are a life for us. They’re a life for our, the people that we work with, the leaders that we work with and so whatever situation you’re in, those difficulties are actually an invitation if you can look at them as an invitation and see a bigger picture and to say, “I want to become a certain type of leader. How is this inviting me to develop the tools that will actually help me realize that potential in myself?” It’s so profound. And yet when we’re in the reactive state, it’s so hard to see. So that’s what a coach does, right? It is to help you to see beyond what you’re currently able to see because all of the detail is so much in your face.

[00:30:31] You need a coach just like a, just like a sports player. You need a coach to see things that you may not have recognized. So those are those three things.

[00:30:42] Stephanie Willmore: Well, thank you so much for sharing with that. And just to recap a little bit, I just loved how you talked about how you’re going to gain experience one way or the other, right?

[00:30:50] Like transformation happens when you go through it, and so you might as well do it with. Some courage with some curiosity and being authentic with how you’re feeling, but also understanding that you’re going to gain something from this. I’ve worked with leaders who have kind of had some frustrations or some stress regarding a change, but then I asked them how they react to it and some of their wins that come from it.

[00:31:16] And they talk about how they empathize with their team. Their team felt hurt on one-on-ones, how they are able to leverage their capacity in their position to talk to their leader and in order to kind of like assuage some of their fears and concerns, and that feedback, and that made a huge difference to the employees that were affected, so even though these are undesirable experiences sometimes, we grow through it.

[00:31:40] We change, we gain skills and experience to become who we’re meant to be. And I think that’s a great way to round out the conversation. Is there anything else you want to add? 

[00:31:49] Janet Taggart: Yeah, I was just thinking, you said these situations help us gain experience. And really one of the choices is what kind of experience do you want to garner from this?

[00:32:01] Is it the experience of when it gets tough, I check the door and leave or is it the experience that I want to figure out how other people can succeed through these kinds of challenges? And I’m going to be curious about that. And recognize I’m in a hero’s journey and I may not see the way through right now.

[00:32:21] And that whatever it is, I’m going to get myself ready to develop the strategies and tools that will help me in similar situations going forward. It’s such a powerful work. This is really the crux of where leadership happens. And I think the other thing is to express that we recognize that every situation is unique and that facing challenges like this involve deep work and often requires a coach that can help, that can be such an important asset to leaders who are open and are willing to adjust their approach. Not everyone is cut out for that, but when they’re open, when they’ve known they’re curious, when they’re willing to adjust their approach, they are coachable. And when that happens, real, real significant transformation is about to occur. 

[00:33:20] Stephanie Willmore: Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that. Yes. It’s always nice to have somebody in your corner, especially somebody who’s weathered this before. I loved the example you shared about Linda, going through all of those mergers and acquisitions and acquisitions.

[00:33:40] You can go through this thinking so much, especially with somebody behind you. And so thank you so much for sharing all of that wisdom with us today. And I imagine it will help a lot of our listeners who are navigating unprecedented changes in their organization. And to our listeners, we invite you to appreciate the experiences that have brought you here to this moment in your life’s journey. And we invite you to stay open to the possibilities within you. You are meant for greater things. Until next time.

At Peridot Circle, we facilitate the growth and transformation of individuals, leaders, and emerging leaders of fast-growing tech-savvy organizations. If any of our listeners are interested in learning more about our approach to leadership coaching at Peridot Circle Consulting and how to help transform how you show up at work, book a consult with us online at peridotcircleconsulting.com. We would love to help you and your organization achieve more than ever before.